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Harbinger
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Posted 9:14 am, 08/03/2018
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Lurker, your suggestion that I moved the goal posts on this thread has some merit, though I object to your use of the word “keep.” I think I have moved the goal just once, in response to your first post, which offered a purely philosophical defense, something I hadn’t anticipated. I really was looking for defenses based on empirical evidence, so I am not sure whether I am guilty of moving the goal posts or of creating a prompt that was not specific enough, in either case, I apologize.
Here… I’ll give you credit.
Congratulations Lurker: Challenge Complete. Live long and prosper.
This concludes the Harbinger Challenge.
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Lurker2
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Posted 9:55 pm, 08/02/2018
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Half of all Americans have an IQ that is below average. That's not an opinion - just a cold statistic. Those less intelligent are more likely to find themselves in social traps be they rural or urban. They are even less likely to understand the forces that keep them down. They are more likely to accept that their problems are all their fault. It's not always all their fault, and many are just not smart enough to see the way out of poverty or brave enough to make the leap.
Separate the issue of Jesus' divinity from the good common sense he preached - "get your ox out of the ditch", render unto Caesar that which is Casers, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, he puts down the rich man because the rich man KNOWS better, he loses it in the Temple where there are bankers because they KNOW better. "Teach a man to fish"., etc., etc. The true helping hand is not a single hand out - it's a form of education that creates a permanent betternance of the individual. Not everyone has the wits to thrive, but many people know better and have the obligation to teach those that do not know better.
Most of Trump's supporters want to live in an America that never existed except on the Andy Griffith Show and Leave it to Beaver. Wouldn't that be nice? Most of his supporters are desperate for a "savior" and Jesus is too nice and too slow to fit the bill. Sort of like how many of Obama's supporters worshiped him and how many of them want to live in an America that looks the Federation in Star Trek where there is no racism, sexism, or nearly any other human ism that sucks.
They love Trump the way people loved other "bomb throwers" in history.
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Lurker2
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Posted 9:39 pm, 08/02/2018
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Most of Trump's most earnest supporters are not well educated or well versed in the notion of cause and effect. Certain cultures train their children to accept things without empirical evidence and this works up until the point they realize they have been lied to and become disillusioned or continues into their adult years where they make judgements and choices according to beliefs, feelings, or faith rather than facts.
Trump, like all good hucksters plays upon this. When decision making is based on non-empirical measures, there is no control for confirmation bias so for instance the North Koreans sending us a several bags of bones becomes something to point to as some sort of achievement rather than focusing on the problem that they still have nuclear weapons, still have fissile PU, and still represent a massive threat to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc., etc.
Many of Trump's supports "played by the rules" for decades and got screwed. This is the Fordist bargain with the Devil. They got a factory job they thought was good, invested any money they had into a rural or economically dying area, and then became trapped in the area when the bottom fell out so they enjoy the "schenfreuden" sp? The fact that Trump would not wipe his anus on them is not the point, the point is that he is "sticking it" to the people that the losers see as winners.
It's no different than watching Jerry Springer.
As far as cause and effect, anyone who thinks "Trumps" policies are behind the current economic expansion are just plain stupid. The current economy is always a lagging indicator of past economic policy and events. The seeds of the Great Depression were planted by WWI and Calvin Coolidge - Hoover caught the blowback. The Great Recession seeds were planted in the early 2000's by the Bush Administration, Banks, Speculators, and the ending of the Kondritieve Cycle.
The slow recovery is because the Recession was in fact a Depression, mitigated by government actions, however the Republican Congress only helped enough to allow a slow recovery. Although a slow recovery was designed to hurt Obama, it was what was needed.
We hit 4% GDP growth one quarter - so what? It can not be maintained because our economy is so large that every 1 percent increase is akin to the total GDP of many countries. High growth in China is because their base was so much smaller that it was easier to drive up from a percentage basis.
Many people do not understand statistics. Combine that with confirmation bias, feeling rather than thinking, and a deep hatred of East and West Coast winners that rub their success in the faces of these people and you have Trump voters. Trump voters were created by the lies told that group by Republicans since the mid 80's, AND by the abandonment of that group by Democrats starting in the 00's. Is it any wonder they turned to a demagogue?
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Lurker2
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Posted 9:22 pm, 08/02/2018
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The Harbinger Challenge
Can anyone on this site defend the Republican Party or Trump without lying, equivocating or changing the subject?
This is a meaningless exercise because you keep moving the goalposts. Lucy Van Pelt would be proud.
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Olejoe
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Posted 9:18 pm, 08/02/2018
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Negotiated the return of the remains of US soldiers from NK Donating his presidential salary to worthy cause like the VA and National Parks.
Repeal the Obamacare tax penalty (2019) saving those who can't receive a subsidy or pay sky high insurance premiums from at least being penalized for it.
Allowing for the sale of short term insurance policies renewable for 36 months to help those same people at least have some coverage. Even though it may not be as comprehensive as some Obamacare policies it would be a personal choice and better than nothing if it's all they can afford.
https://www.cnbc.com...acare.htmlThe unemployment rate is lower than it has been in years.
Although these things may not be important to you they are to me and millions more American citizens.
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jack rip her
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Posted 7:21 pm, 08/02/2018
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You have given your opinion hair brain with no facts to support your opinions. Sharpie on the other hand cited you facts.
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Harbinger
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Posted 6:32 pm, 08/02/2018
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Sorry Lurker, power for power's sake may be a realistic personal defense Trump might make to himself for himself, but it leaves the other 300-plus million of us out in the cold. The challenge is meant to see if anyone could actually defend Trump's job performance. I want to figure out what those in Trump's base see in a man who most Americans beleve to be a poor President.. His highest approval rating so far has been in the 40s. According to the CBO, his tax break for the rich is projected to add a trillion dollars to the national debt. His tariffs are already costing the country jobs. And the swamp he said he would drain now has twice as many snakes in it.
I just don't get it. Why do they love him? He's been a conman his whole life, in fact he's made a career of promising more than he can deliver -- just ask the students of Trump University.
Tell me Lurker -- you at least seem a bit rational -- why do people love this obvious fraudster?
Oh... sharpie you should study up on basic logic.
Challenge Incomplete.
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Pappyspal
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Posted 6:27 pm, 08/02/2018
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"Does no one have a rational defense of this man and his presidency?"
No, because there is no rational defense of this man or his ''presidency''. There is no defense, period.
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SharpestShootersWin
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Posted 5:51 pm, 08/02/2018
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This Harb character lacks seriousness. He hasn't said one thing to rebut my awesome assertions. I'm declarng myself - and Lurker2 - the winners. Prop closed. and sorry guys n gals, I'm picking up my large marbles and going home.
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Lurker2
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Posted 5:30 pm, 08/02/2018
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I won the challenge after meeting all the criteria.
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Harbinger
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Posted 4:10 pm, 08/02/2018
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Sharpie, you can't defend any one claim, so you make endless assertions. It's an old apologist trick, and it is ultimately dishonest.
Sorry, Challenge Incomplete.
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carman60
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Posted 3:50 pm, 08/02/2018
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the only ones i find lying is the demarats and CNN,ABC,NBC,CBS All demarats
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SharpestShootersWin
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Posted 3:25 pm, 08/02/2018
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"You can't just repeat a bunch of claims with no proof, sharpestshooters. We need links, sources, studies.... some sort of way to prove your 'facts' before you can pass them as honest truths. Pappyspal refuted several of your claims, granted that was without sources of their own, but that just goes to show there's another side/opinion to some of the things you said. With solid proof to back your list of assertions, I'd say you might have completed this challenge."
???Repeat a bunch of claims??? The earth is flat. The earth is the center of the universe. Solid proof... Harrrumph... There are still people alive today who believe this stuff.
Oh yes, and 1+1=10 the world around. If it didn't, you wouldn't be reading this.
<Pappypal> is factually challenged on every point he tried to make. Well, if you get your news from CNN or worse, MSNBC, and the the ultra liberal fake news print media, then You will need to cite your "solid proof". Widely informed people like myself, Will generally agree with my points without demanding citations. "You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts".
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SharpestShootersWin
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Posted 2:34 pm, 08/02/2018
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HARB, I assert that 1+1=2 is true. I don't need to backup my assertion with logical argument. A fact is not an opinion which needs to be supported.
If you don't understand that, we cannot have any further discussion.
If you cannot refute the truth of my first point, ie that a majority of tax paying individuals and corporations will benefit from TRUMP's Tax Cuts and Reform Legislation, then we have to conclude you have not been following this issue at all and should not muddy the water with ignorant assertions to the contrary. My Quoting learned articles on the subject aren't going to help you get this truth any more clearly.
The ball is in your court.
Show that my assertions are not true.
Start with showing that 1+1=2 is not true. Haaa.
TRUMP is truly the peoples president. I get it that you and your ilk just can't stand that truth.
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Just Law
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Posted 2:00 pm, 08/02/2018
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You can't just repeat a bunch of claims with no proof, sharpestshooters. We need links, sources, studies.... some sort of way to prove your 'facts' before you can pass them as honest truths. Pappyspal refuted several of your claims, granted that was without sources of their own, but that just goes to show there's another side/opinion to some of the things you said. With solid proof to back your list of assertions, I'd say you might have completed this challenge.
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SharpestShootersWin
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Posted 1:53 pm, 08/02/2018
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Sorry Harb, Refutation of facts by asserting they are not facts is lame. If this is your best rejoinder, you then have no skills for this debate. Get lost.
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Harbinger
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Posted 12:54 pm, 08/02/2018
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Sorry, Sharpie, thought you understood logic. Unsupported assertions, no matter how numerous, do not constitute an argument. Challenge Incomplete.
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SharpestShootersWin
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Posted 12:31 pm, 08/02/2018
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SO, somehow assertions of facts don't count? Which of my assertions are not true?, not facts?
Tax cuts for majority of individuals and corporations!
TRUE!
Policies to support Booming economy and jobs.
TRUE!
Bring back lost jobs and funds parked overseas to USA.
TRUE!
Demand buy America and hire America. TRUE! Roll back of unaffordable federal healthcare boondoggle.
TRUE! Funding essential military capabilities and programs on land, sea and air.
TRUE! Take massive steps to make the USA energy dominant across the world.
TRUE! Enforcing immigration laws.
TRUE! Beginning Funding a real border wall and border security.
TRUE! Support stronger law enforcement, ICE and Homeland Security. TRUE! Massive Roll back of oppressive executive regulations.
TRUE! Defuse NOKO nuclear threat. TRUE! Force China and many others to correct trade imbalances visavie USA.
TRUE! Reject Iran nuclear deal and threats.
TRUE! Move USA embassy to Jerusalem.
TRUE! Punish Russia for obvious efforts to undermine USA interests and world order.
TRUE! Reject reckless and feckless “Global Warming” accords. TRUE! Restore mission and fair funding of NATO. TRUE! Hold UN thug countries to first principles of peace and security.
TRUE! Call out stupidity of the Liberal, socialist, commie imbeciles who daily try to sabotage the Republic. TRUE! Demand respect for the Flag. TRUE! Deliver on promises made , promises kept.
TRUE!
Lets just face it. You don't like the TRUTH.
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SharpestShootersWin
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Posted 12:16 pm, 08/02/2018
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Harbinger keeps moving the goal post... "Can anyone on this site defend the Republican Party or Trump without lying, equivocating or changing the subject?" I did exactly that.
------ Tax cuts for majority of individuals and corporations!
Policies to support Booming economy and jobs.
Bring back lost jobs and funds parked overseas to USA.
Demand buy america and hire america.
Roll back of unaffordable federal healthcare boondoggle.
Funding essential military capabilities and programs on land, sea and air.
Take massive steps to make the USA energy dominant across the world.
Enforcing immigration laws.
Beginning Funding a real border wall and border security.
Support stronger law enforcement, ICE and Homeland Security.
Massive Roll back of oppressive executive regulations.
Defuse NOKO nuclear threat.
Force China and many others to correct trade imbalances visavie USA.
Reject Iran nuclear deal and threats.
Move USA embassy to Jerusalem.
Punish Russia for obvious efforts to undermine USA interests and world order.
Reject reckless and feckless “Global Warming” accords.
Restore mission and fair funding of NATO.
Hold UN thug countries to first principles of peace and security.
Call out stupidity of the Liberal, socialist, commie imbeciles who daily try to sabotage the Republic.
Demand respect for the Flag.
Deliver on promises made , promises kept.
M. A. G. A.
------ No lies, no equivocating, no changing the subject. Just Facts.
Now he can't stand a comprehensive answer, and demands more. It's always more, more lies, more money, with these freakin dishonest *N*zzzi* cleptogarks. Quoting the Liberal-socialist Party line talking points doesn't hack it my friend.
Stay tuned, we'll all get more, much more, Thank God for this man TRUMP.
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Harbinger
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Posted 11:27 am, 08/02/2018
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Synopsis
So far we have these defenses of Trump:
Lurker2 claims power for power’s sake is justification for Trump �" though I contend such justification is contrary to Constitutional norms and is not wholly rational.
SharpestShooterWins gave us a list of “accomplishments” on Trump’s part, though no evidence to back up even one of his assertions.
BillytheMountain makes a defense of Trump on the grounds of race. Apparently Billy has a profound fear of brown people. Sad.
And jrscott believes the best way to defend Trump is to simply make things up and post them as if true.
Challenge Incomplete.
Does no one have a rational defense of this man and his presidency? So far you guys are shooting blanks.
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